(Originally posted to Let's Play Sacntuary)
#51, originally posted Apr 18 2016, 08:01 AM
Route B—Session 11, part 7: Bits and Bads
I explore different choices in this route a little more, while seeing more "fragments" that show up after getting the 0.1 ending. Then I find the last bad ending.
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
zero-day (2)
So, in this telling (version?) of events, Ishtar manages to get in touch with Nabu, and warn him of the impending danger. This seems to be a slightly different path. Although the end result as far as this route is concerned are the same, maybe it has an impact later. (I'm assuming these stories continue after the end point of the 0.1 routes once we get all the 0.1 endings, or something like that.)
bootstrap (2)
And this scene is undeniably a departure from the original version. Unlike the others, it's impossible to suppose that it's just something that was skipped over. Originally, Sami was found alone, crying by the river. But this time, it seems that she poses as Yumi to try to get Kosuke to kiss her. It doesn't work out due to Kosuke's perceptiveness, but they still come to some understanding. Definitely more satisfying.
Also, incidentally, I noticed something after rewatching the footage. You can see Sami's blue eyes in the closeup CG. Yumi's eyes are brown. This is probably a major reason Kosuke was so easily able to see through her act. If you look at the scene before the CG, however, you can see her eyes appear to be the same brown of Yumi's eyes. I guess they didn't want to include an extra sprite where they just changed the eye color and/or they didn't want to give it away? Probably the former, if this is the only scene in the whole VN where Sami does this.
I said I would check to see if there are any more choices I can do differently in this route, and then go back to route A. After thinking about it, I don't think there is anything else to change route B significantly, but there may be more fragments (as I've taken to calling them) before that first critical choice. If I'd thought about it, I should have realized they were going to show up, so I could have started from the beginning of the route and see them all in order. Oh, well.
So, I'm going to start route B over and go all the way through, and see what other extra scenes we can see. Then, I'll go and check route A, from the start.
So, in this telling (version?) of events, Ishtar manages to get in touch with Nabu, and warn him of the impending danger. This seems to be a slightly different path. Although the end result as far as this route is concerned are the same, maybe it has an impact later. (I'm assuming these stories continue after the end point of the 0.1 routes once we get all the 0.1 endings, or something like that.)
bootstrap (2)
And this scene is undeniably a departure from the original version. Unlike the others, it's impossible to suppose that it's just something that was skipped over. Originally, Sami was found alone, crying by the river. But this time, it seems that she poses as Yumi to try to get Kosuke to kiss her. It doesn't work out due to Kosuke's perceptiveness, but they still come to some understanding. Definitely more satisfying.
Also, incidentally, I noticed something after rewatching the footage. You can see Sami's blue eyes in the closeup CG. Yumi's eyes are brown. This is probably a major reason Kosuke was so easily able to see through her act. If you look at the scene before the CG, however, you can see her eyes appear to be the same brown of Yumi's eyes. I guess they didn't want to include an extra sprite where they just changed the eye color and/or they didn't want to give it away? Probably the former, if this is the only scene in the whole VN where Sami does this.
I said I would check to see if there are any more choices I can do differently in this route, and then go back to route A. After thinking about it, I don't think there is anything else to change route B significantly, but there may be more fragments (as I've taken to calling them) before that first critical choice. If I'd thought about it, I should have realized they were going to show up, so I could have started from the beginning of the route and see them all in order. Oh, well.
So, I'm going to start route B over and go all the way through, and see what other extra scenes we can see. Then, I'll go and check route A, from the start.
Route B—Session 11 (full)
#52, originally posted Apr 20 2016, 08:12 AM
Route A/B—Session 12, part 1: Fragments 2
Finishing up fragments of route B, then starting on the ones for route A. There are important clues about what's really going on.
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
inbound (2)
Again with Eresh (presumably). She certainly had a significant influence for someone who's not around. Well, she wouldn't be the only one. Also, she might actually be working behind the scenes, if LEM is any indication. There are similarities between her role with respect to Ishtar and Mutsuki's with respect to Hinata. So, will every route have this sort of thing going on?
target (2)
More stuff demonstrating Kosuke's lack of cultural education. Referencing Arthurian legend, and revealing the meaning of Kosuke's handle. Okay, that's nice, but I'm not sure if this is really important.
sky and wind (2)
Hinata thinks about the moon and suicide. Doesn't seem to be much here.
But not long after that, at the first encounter with Enlil, he sees inexplicable glimpses of what will happen days later, when Enlil kills his Shamash avatar. How does he know this? Well, if you've been a fan of Nakazawa's other works, you can probably guess that there is something akin to a time loop where the protagonist gets information about the future by having experienced it already, or some being that exists outside of time whose foreknowledge is leaking through. I don't know if either of those is close to what's happening in I/O, but it's something to think about.
something secretive and fun (2)
Here, we get a lesson in Mesopotamian mythology. This seems to be connected to route B. I don't remember it popping up when I redid route A before starting on B. Assuming I'm not misremembering, that must mean it unlocks after completing B. So, each route has extra scenes related to each of the other routes? I'm going to have to check A and B again when I finish C.
Among other things, Yayoi talks about the role of Ea (the god from the mythology, that is) in protecting humanity from the other gods, and how he is cursed for it, etc. Enlil is the one to perpetrate the flood, and is unhappy with Ea's interference. Now, from what we saw in route B, Megumi died soon after leaving Anunnaki. I'm thinking that Enlil may have had something to do with that.
while gently falling (2)
While thinking back on the encounter with Enlil, Hinata has another glimpse of the future (I think). This time, it's something we haven't seen: someone (most likely Enlil) thrusting a sword at Sakuya, who has her arms held up defensively. That doesn't look good.
The background has some clues about what's going on. We can see a tree, a bush, and a fence, with a twilight sky behind them. I think there might also be a wall to the right, but it's unclear. This is obviously a rooftop, but where? Maybe Kyouka Academy? In one version of the route A ending, she goes with Hinata to the Hanging Gardens. But I think I've figured out that the version where they part from each other is canonical, since that's when Hinata suggests she go to eXarch. Does the eXarch building have vegetation on its roof? It seems like it would be an odd coincidence, but Mitsuhiko works at eXarch, and he also tended the Hanging Gardens.
taken by sin (2)
Marduk was Ea's son. Does that have any relevance to this story? To be honest, I've had a lot of trouble seeing how it all applies, if indeed it does. But maybe this is a clue to the fate of the Ea Shadow?
Also, the lineage goes: Anu, Ea, Marduk, Nabu. We now know Sakuya's father's handle is Nabu, so there is a mythological connection, in addition to the real-life association, with Yayoi. Hmm. I still don't get it, though. Everything is mixed up between the roles in this world and those in myth. Maybe a relationship chart would help?
She also talks about how the Assyrians replaced Marduk with Ashur. Ashur is also the name of the game Babylon's "Final Scenario". But why? I keep thinking of the strange being that speaks to Sakuya later on. Was that Marduk, the AI that Mutsuki nurtured? Did it take on the name Ashur? Or is is something else? What about Mutsuki herself? Considering what she did to herself, one can imagine her mind could have grown into something very different from that of a human.
The text uses the word "corona" here in a way I don't recognize. Maybe that should be "cornea", which is the outer layer of a human eye? That would make some sense, I suppose.
This etymology linking the Mesopotamian "Ashur" to something in Japan (derived from India via Buddhism) is interesting. I don't know if I really believe it. Languages, and especially names, can be pretty tricky, and coincidences do occur a lot.
Again with Eresh (presumably). She certainly had a significant influence for someone who's not around. Well, she wouldn't be the only one. Also, she might actually be working behind the scenes, if LEM is any indication. There are similarities between her role with respect to Ishtar and Mutsuki's with respect to Hinata. So, will every route have this sort of thing going on?
target (2)
More stuff demonstrating Kosuke's lack of cultural education. Referencing Arthurian legend, and revealing the meaning of Kosuke's handle. Okay, that's nice, but I'm not sure if this is really important.
sky and wind (2)
Hinata thinks about the moon and suicide. Doesn't seem to be much here.
But not long after that, at the first encounter with Enlil, he sees inexplicable glimpses of what will happen days later, when Enlil kills his Shamash avatar. How does he know this? Well, if you've been a fan of Nakazawa's other works, you can probably guess that there is something akin to a time loop where the protagonist gets information about the future by having experienced it already, or some being that exists outside of time whose foreknowledge is leaking through. I don't know if either of those is close to what's happening in I/O, but it's something to think about.
something secretive and fun (2)
Here, we get a lesson in Mesopotamian mythology. This seems to be connected to route B. I don't remember it popping up when I redid route A before starting on B. Assuming I'm not misremembering, that must mean it unlocks after completing B. So, each route has extra scenes related to each of the other routes? I'm going to have to check A and B again when I finish C.
Among other things, Yayoi talks about the role of Ea (the god from the mythology, that is) in protecting humanity from the other gods, and how he is cursed for it, etc. Enlil is the one to perpetrate the flood, and is unhappy with Ea's interference. Now, from what we saw in route B, Megumi died soon after leaving Anunnaki. I'm thinking that Enlil may have had something to do with that.
while gently falling (2)
While thinking back on the encounter with Enlil, Hinata has another glimpse of the future (I think). This time, it's something we haven't seen: someone (most likely Enlil) thrusting a sword at Sakuya, who has her arms held up defensively. That doesn't look good.
The background has some clues about what's going on. We can see a tree, a bush, and a fence, with a twilight sky behind them. I think there might also be a wall to the right, but it's unclear. This is obviously a rooftop, but where? Maybe Kyouka Academy? In one version of the route A ending, she goes with Hinata to the Hanging Gardens. But I think I've figured out that the version where they part from each other is canonical, since that's when Hinata suggests she go to eXarch. Does the eXarch building have vegetation on its roof? It seems like it would be an odd coincidence, but Mitsuhiko works at eXarch, and he also tended the Hanging Gardens.
taken by sin (2)
Marduk was Ea's son. Does that have any relevance to this story? To be honest, I've had a lot of trouble seeing how it all applies, if indeed it does. But maybe this is a clue to the fate of the Ea Shadow?
Also, the lineage goes: Anu, Ea, Marduk, Nabu. We now know Sakuya's father's handle is Nabu, so there is a mythological connection, in addition to the real-life association, with Yayoi. Hmm. I still don't get it, though. Everything is mixed up between the roles in this world and those in myth. Maybe a relationship chart would help?
She also talks about how the Assyrians replaced Marduk with Ashur. Ashur is also the name of the game Babylon's "Final Scenario". But why? I keep thinking of the strange being that speaks to Sakuya later on. Was that Marduk, the AI that Mutsuki nurtured? Did it take on the name Ashur? Or is is something else? What about Mutsuki herself? Considering what she did to herself, one can imagine her mind could have grown into something very different from that of a human.
The text uses the word "corona" here in a way I don't recognize. Maybe that should be "cornea", which is the outer layer of a human eye? That would make some sense, I suppose.
This etymology linking the Mesopotamian "Ashur" to something in Japan (derived from India via Buddhism) is interesting. I don't know if I really believe it. Languages, and especially names, can be pretty tricky, and coincidences do occur a lot.
#53, originally posted Apr 21 2016, 07:26 AM
Route A/B—Session 12, part 2: Fragments 3
The rest of the route A fragments.
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
the door separated from time (2)
Yet another flash of a scene that seems to be from the future. A man in a white coat (a lab coat?) running down a red-lit hallway, trailed by a girl who looks a bit like Sakuya. They're both running into the picture, and we can clearly identify Sakuya only because she is looking to the side. However, the man would most likely be her father, Nabu. The hair and what little we can see of the face seem about right. My guess is that this happens either just after she arrives in the building or not long after the route B 0.1 ending.
Shortly after that, Sakuya starts talking about how they and Mutsuki used to play a variant of hide-and-seek, and then proceeds to play it with Hinata. That seemed fun (even if it was annoying to Hinata), though it doesn't seem to give us that much vital information.
inviting fairy (2)
Another interesting little extra excursion into mythology, connecting it to Hinata's need to search for Mutsuki.
seek and ye shall find... (2)
Hey, something else I got right. The name of Sakuya's stuffed rabbit (Nana) was based on the god Nannar (aka Nanna, aka Sin). Hinata thinks what a coincidence it is that both Mutsuki's and Sakuya's stuffed rabbits were both named after the moon. If you think about it, though, it's not that strange. The Japanese make a connection in their culture between the moon and rabbits. The odd part, really, is that Sakuya knew that name even at a young age, and that's clearly due to Nabu's influence.
Sakuya also says she was in an accident that messed up her memory. I'd really like to hear more about that. Like what kind of accident, exactly? Was there really an accident, or is there something else going on? Even if there was an accident, although it could easily explain her memory loss, it doesn't so easily explain her apparent immunity to sickness.
all the mysteries are... (2)
Another mythology lesson. More stuff I don't really see the point of. Really, where is it going with all of this? Okay, I get it: the moon is and always has been very important. But what of it?
Yet another flash of a scene that seems to be from the future. A man in a white coat (a lab coat?) running down a red-lit hallway, trailed by a girl who looks a bit like Sakuya. They're both running into the picture, and we can clearly identify Sakuya only because she is looking to the side. However, the man would most likely be her father, Nabu. The hair and what little we can see of the face seem about right. My guess is that this happens either just after she arrives in the building or not long after the route B 0.1 ending.
Shortly after that, Sakuya starts talking about how they and Mutsuki used to play a variant of hide-and-seek, and then proceeds to play it with Hinata. That seemed fun (even if it was annoying to Hinata), though it doesn't seem to give us that much vital information.
inviting fairy (2)
Another interesting little extra excursion into mythology, connecting it to Hinata's need to search for Mutsuki.
seek and ye shall find... (2)
Hey, something else I got right. The name of Sakuya's stuffed rabbit (Nana) was based on the god Nannar (aka Nanna, aka Sin). Hinata thinks what a coincidence it is that both Mutsuki's and Sakuya's stuffed rabbits were both named after the moon. If you think about it, though, it's not that strange. The Japanese make a connection in their culture between the moon and rabbits. The odd part, really, is that Sakuya knew that name even at a young age, and that's clearly due to Nabu's influence.
Sakuya also says she was in an accident that messed up her memory. I'd really like to hear more about that. Like what kind of accident, exactly? Was there really an accident, or is there something else going on? Even if there was an accident, although it could easily explain her memory loss, it doesn't so easily explain her apparent immunity to sickness.
all the mysteries are... (2)
Another mythology lesson. More stuff I don't really see the point of. Really, where is it going with all of this? Okay, I get it: the moon is and always has been very important. But what of it?
Route A/B—Session 12 (full)
#54, originally posted Apr 23 2016, 07:00 AM
Here we go, people. Things are about to get rather weird from this point on.
Route C—Session 13, part 1: What Even...?
It's Ishtar again. But this time, things are very confusing. She experiences a disjointed series of events with no obvious connection between them. HE finds someone dead and falls into despair. Mika is creepy, and speaks in riddles. Fights with Code and HE. Which side is she even on?
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
-Primordial Soup-
Well, this is certainly a change from the beginnings of the first two routes. Underwater, apparently?
For those who don't know, a Klein bottle is a sort of 4D extension of the concept of a Möbius strip. Whereas the latter can be formed by taking a rectangle and joining two opposite edges with a half-twist, a Klein bottle can be formed a rolling a rectangle into a cylinder and then joining the ends with a sort of half-twist in a 4th dimension. In both cases, two edges get joined with opposite orientations. Whereas a Möbius strip has one edge and one side, a Klein bottle has no edge and one side, and despite being a closed surface, there is no inside/outside distinction. Also, if one were to cut a Klein bottle lengthwise, the result would be two Möbius strips with opposite handedness.
-Prayer-
So, this is the scene we had a glimpse of in route B. Isn't this long before the events of that route? (I thought that because when I saw this picture in that route, I assumed it was a memory.) And just who is the dead girl? Clearly not Ishtar's sister, since she (still? already?) has that crucifix and prays to her.
-The High Priestess-
But here, she says she no longer works for eXarch and seems to remember the end of route B as being in the past. If that's the case, then maybe the aforementioned scene with HE cradling a dead girl happens after route B. I can't be sure of that, but after seeing the route A fragments, it's not too far-fetched for her to have seen a glimpse of the future.
Who are "those two" that Mika refers to? I can think of two important pairs of people. One is Enlil and Sin (Mutsuki), and the other is Ishtar and HE, the latter of whom seem to be important in the plot of this route.
-Mother Earth-
Ishtar is an "intruder"? What does that mean?
No surprise that no one seems to be able to stop HE's advance.
This scene suggests Ishtar is opposing HE.
-The Chariot-
Stop HE's rampage? That reminds me of that ominous email from route B: "STOP THE RAMPAGE, OR THE WORLD WILL COLLAPSE". Was it talking about HE? Maybe that's too simple an answer, though.
-The Fool-
So she's helping HE this time? Well, if it's against Code, I guess it makes sense. And HE's supposed to be captured alive.
Another bit of evidence that this is after route B: Ishtar remembers that confrontation with Andras (as a normal memory).
Well, this is certainly a change from the beginnings of the first two routes. Underwater, apparently?
For those who don't know, a Klein bottle is a sort of 4D extension of the concept of a Möbius strip. Whereas the latter can be formed by taking a rectangle and joining two opposite edges with a half-twist, a Klein bottle can be formed a rolling a rectangle into a cylinder and then joining the ends with a sort of half-twist in a 4th dimension. In both cases, two edges get joined with opposite orientations. Whereas a Möbius strip has one edge and one side, a Klein bottle has no edge and one side, and despite being a closed surface, there is no inside/outside distinction. Also, if one were to cut a Klein bottle lengthwise, the result would be two Möbius strips with opposite handedness.
-Prayer-
So, this is the scene we had a glimpse of in route B. Isn't this long before the events of that route? (I thought that because when I saw this picture in that route, I assumed it was a memory.) And just who is the dead girl? Clearly not Ishtar's sister, since she (still? already?) has that crucifix and prays to her.
-The High Priestess-
But here, she says she no longer works for eXarch and seems to remember the end of route B as being in the past. If that's the case, then maybe the aforementioned scene with HE cradling a dead girl happens after route B. I can't be sure of that, but after seeing the route A fragments, it's not too far-fetched for her to have seen a glimpse of the future.
Who are "those two" that Mika refers to? I can think of two important pairs of people. One is Enlil and Sin (Mutsuki), and the other is Ishtar and HE, the latter of whom seem to be important in the plot of this route.
-Mother Earth-
Ishtar is an "intruder"? What does that mean?
No surprise that no one seems to be able to stop HE's advance.
This scene suggests Ishtar is opposing HE.
-The Chariot-
Stop HE's rampage? That reminds me of that ominous email from route B: "STOP THE RAMPAGE, OR THE WORLD WILL COLLAPSE". Was it talking about HE? Maybe that's too simple an answer, though.
-The Fool-
So she's helping HE this time? Well, if it's against Code, I guess it makes sense. And HE's supposed to be captured alive.
Another bit of evidence that this is after route B: Ishtar remembers that confrontation with Andras (as a normal memory).
#55, originally posted Apr 24 2016, 07:35 AM
Route C—Session 13, part 2: Is This Real?
Ishtar has a mysterious relationship with HE. What are they to each other? This time, she finds herself in the same hotel room with him, and he has the Exabyte Crystal, with a strange shadowy figure inside. Ea "banishes" him (whatever that means). Next, HE is collapsed on a floor with severe wounds, again possessing the crystal. Then, she and Kosuke are by the river, and she tries something after suspecting this is not the real world. Back in her hideout, she sees something strange about herself before talking to Mika again about what she tried.
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
-The World-
(I chose "His wounds need treatment".)
Well, whaddya know, a proper look at HE's face this early. I thought he'd have those sunglasses on for a long time. I must say, he is quite handsome, and he also looks pretty young. Maybe that's why he wears the sunglasses, to have a tougher appearance.
So HE is largely a cyborg, then.
That shadow inside the Exabyte Crystal... When I first saw that, I thought it was a frog.
What just happened? Ishtar says she shuts her eyes, and something odd happens at that moment, though I don't know just what.
-Temperance-
Hmm. What does it mean that the world is flickering??
-Capricorn-
"Space-time transfer". Is that what's happening? Maybe.
So... Ishtar might have been in a virtual world this whole time (since the start of this route, at the very least, but probably longer), without having realized it. She assumes it's Babylon, due to that game's extreme realism. But there's no obvious interface to log out.
She tries shutting down her biocomputer, but that doesn't work. That solution is too obvious.
-Sagittarius-
Aoi Mitsuhiko was researching Ishtar? Also, WTF?? Virgin birth? Well, okay, to be fair, such things are possible in nature. For instance, there's parthenogenesis, which is asexual reproduction in a female of a sexual species. It doesn't normally occur in humans, but it can and has been induced, in order to create stem cells. There are other things that could be called "virgin birth", depending on the definition of "virgin". So, what does Mitsuhiko mean by it? For now, I'm going to go with parthenogenesis.
Ishtar has forgotten about Mitsuhiko, huh? Well, maybe they only met that one time.
So Ishtar's name is 暁 明星 (Akatsuki Akari), is it? That's slightly different from what I was thinking before. I'm not giving up my previous analysis, though, since I've already seen that names can have hidden meanings like this.
And here we have two related problems of a virtual world so realistic it's indistinguishable from reality: (1) you might be in one without even knowing it, and (2) you could be trapped with no obvious way to disengage. Babylon was a more-or-less normal game (aside from its extreme realism) with a normal logout feature (or so it seemed, anyway). But in that last scene, Ishtar doesn't find a logout button. I would think someone in the real world could disconnect them, given that not everyone is equipped with a biocomputer, so why doesn't that happen? (Again, I don't really buy the "abrupt disconnection is dangerous" concept.)
There's that mysterious being again. It seems that LEM mentioned it, Sakuya had an encounter with it, and now Ishtar needs to meet it, in the past and the future (why, I have no idea). That last part calls to mind the structure of the Ashur scenario. But Hinata didn't seem to meet it, so I guess it was a failure in the case of him and Sakuya too.
(I chose "His wounds need treatment".)
Well, whaddya know, a proper look at HE's face this early. I thought he'd have those sunglasses on for a long time. I must say, he is quite handsome, and he also looks pretty young. Maybe that's why he wears the sunglasses, to have a tougher appearance.
So HE is largely a cyborg, then.
That shadow inside the Exabyte Crystal... When I first saw that, I thought it was a frog.
What just happened? Ishtar says she shuts her eyes, and something odd happens at that moment, though I don't know just what.
-Temperance-
Hmm. What does it mean that the world is flickering??
-Capricorn-
"Space-time transfer". Is that what's happening? Maybe.
So... Ishtar might have been in a virtual world this whole time (since the start of this route, at the very least, but probably longer), without having realized it. She assumes it's Babylon, due to that game's extreme realism. But there's no obvious interface to log out.
She tries shutting down her biocomputer, but that doesn't work. That solution is too obvious.
-Sagittarius-
Aoi Mitsuhiko was researching Ishtar? Also, WTF?? Virgin birth? Well, okay, to be fair, such things are possible in nature. For instance, there's parthenogenesis, which is asexual reproduction in a female of a sexual species. It doesn't normally occur in humans, but it can and has been induced, in order to create stem cells. There are other things that could be called "virgin birth", depending on the definition of "virgin". So, what does Mitsuhiko mean by it? For now, I'm going to go with parthenogenesis.
Ishtar has forgotten about Mitsuhiko, huh? Well, maybe they only met that one time.
So Ishtar's name is 暁 明星 (Akatsuki Akari), is it? That's slightly different from what I was thinking before. I'm not giving up my previous analysis, though, since I've already seen that names can have hidden meanings like this.
And here we have two related problems of a virtual world so realistic it's indistinguishable from reality: (1) you might be in one without even knowing it, and (2) you could be trapped with no obvious way to disengage. Babylon was a more-or-less normal game (aside from its extreme realism) with a normal logout feature (or so it seemed, anyway). But in that last scene, Ishtar doesn't find a logout button. I would think someone in the real world could disconnect them, given that not everyone is equipped with a biocomputer, so why doesn't that happen? (Again, I don't really buy the "abrupt disconnection is dangerous" concept.)
There's that mysterious being again. It seems that LEM mentioned it, Sakuya had an encounter with it, and now Ishtar needs to meet it, in the past and the future (why, I have no idea). That last part calls to mind the structure of the Ashur scenario. But Hinata didn't seem to meet it, so I guess it was a failure in the case of him and Sakuya too.
#56, originally posted Apr 25 2016, 09:02 AM
Route C—Session 13, part 3: Advice
Ishtar meets an old colleague over monjayaki, and receives both a request and advice. Then, she goes for maintenance work and meets a certain enigmatic character who also gives advice.
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
-The Empress-
"At the very least, I can rest assured that I'm not getting overridden by data loading." How can you really know that for sure? If you're talking about your own mind, theoretically it's possible for something to be happening, and you wouldn't be aware of it because that awareness is being suppressed. I'll assume that's the case here, though.
So... is Yayoi talking about HE or not? I think she probably is, but maybe not.
It's not clear where these ruins Yayoi is talking about are located, but I'd be willing to bet it's Mesopotamia.
And now Ishtar says something a little strange ("an alternate flow from future ⇒ present ⇒ past"). I can only assume she comes up with this due to her own situation. This isn't necessarily directly related to what she's thinking of, but it's said that the laws of physics, as currently understood, are symmetrical with respect to the flow of time, with only a few exceptions, such as thermodynamics and quantum phenomena. Which is to say, there are processes that are irreversible, such as inelastic collisions and wave function collapse. Why we perceive a flow of time, and what exactly makes the universe prefer one direction for time (the "arrow of time") are still matters of debate.
Well, in any case, Ishtar is convinced that these discontinuities are her moving back in time. If you think about the sequence of scenes we've seen in this route so far, it does start to make sense. Is that really all, though? I'm not fully convinced this is a straight sequence, but let's work under this assumption for now.
Speaking of Ashur, which has pairs of people, one going to the past, and one going to the future, what if that's what's happening with the four routes of I/O? Then, if routes A and B move forward in the normal way, C and D move backward. Ishtar here already thinks she might be in Babylon, and there are hints questioning whether any of this is "real", so it's not much of a stretch if Ashur is this really elaborate scenario and the whole VN is about its events.
"There's only one reason anyone would go from the future to the past: to change history." I disagree. Ever heard of curiosity? Archeology? Many of us would love to be able to go back in time and observe what really happened at various points in history. As long as there aren't major drawbacks, it would surely beat working with incomplete, fragmented evidence. Well, depending on one's goals, it might be a disappointment; ordinary life would be quite boring to watch in most cases.
Huh? Is Yayoi actually a teacher as well as a doctor? I doubt that's really the case. I know "sensei" is actually a general term for people in any number of professions, including both doctor and teacher. Could that be the source of confusion, or is it just the terminology in Japanese schools?
So what this Troy analogy is saying, then, is that Ishtar can't actually change the past. All she can do is act in a way consistent with recorded history while still brining about a favorable result.
-Death- and -The Star-
(What is this, two scenes in one?)
So eXarch is ruthless enough to sacrifice their own employees. At least twice. I'm not really that surprised. They're the evil corporation of this story, after all.
There's that tank again. So does LEM or whatever live in the back of Nergal's shop? Or is there something else going on?
Hmm... so whether Enlil is dead or alive is not yet decided? In theory, Ishtar could "decide" that Enlil is still alive, but she has to be careful to conceal it from HE, either by just not allowing it to be known publicly or by maintaining the superposition of dead/alive states. Am I understanding this correctly? In reality, preventing quantum decoherence like that is challenging for small systems of particles, and would probably be nigh impossible for macroscopic systems like, say, a box with a cat inside or, even worse, a person involved in a duel. Any significant interaction with the outside universe (say, a high-energy photon or an electron that slips through containment) could ruin it. I'm not sure if they're really going for something like that with this story, or it's more of a metaphor for something a bit more mundane.
Hmm, "brat". Who is that, I wonder? Well, I can think of one or two people that could fit that designation, especially as Nergal would use it. Sami, perhaps. We know he worked on her biocomputer. There's also Hinata, but he doesn't have a biocomputer as far as we know, and no known reason to have one installed. Wouldn't it be ironic if he was talking about HE?
"At the very least, I can rest assured that I'm not getting overridden by data loading." How can you really know that for sure? If you're talking about your own mind, theoretically it's possible for something to be happening, and you wouldn't be aware of it because that awareness is being suppressed. I'll assume that's the case here, though.
So... is Yayoi talking about HE or not? I think she probably is, but maybe not.
It's not clear where these ruins Yayoi is talking about are located, but I'd be willing to bet it's Mesopotamia.
And now Ishtar says something a little strange ("an alternate flow from future ⇒ present ⇒ past"). I can only assume she comes up with this due to her own situation. This isn't necessarily directly related to what she's thinking of, but it's said that the laws of physics, as currently understood, are symmetrical with respect to the flow of time, with only a few exceptions, such as thermodynamics and quantum phenomena. Which is to say, there are processes that are irreversible, such as inelastic collisions and wave function collapse. Why we perceive a flow of time, and what exactly makes the universe prefer one direction for time (the "arrow of time") are still matters of debate.
Well, in any case, Ishtar is convinced that these discontinuities are her moving back in time. If you think about the sequence of scenes we've seen in this route so far, it does start to make sense. Is that really all, though? I'm not fully convinced this is a straight sequence, but let's work under this assumption for now.
Speaking of Ashur, which has pairs of people, one going to the past, and one going to the future, what if that's what's happening with the four routes of I/O? Then, if routes A and B move forward in the normal way, C and D move backward. Ishtar here already thinks she might be in Babylon, and there are hints questioning whether any of this is "real", so it's not much of a stretch if Ashur is this really elaborate scenario and the whole VN is about its events.
"There's only one reason anyone would go from the future to the past: to change history." I disagree. Ever heard of curiosity? Archeology? Many of us would love to be able to go back in time and observe what really happened at various points in history. As long as there aren't major drawbacks, it would surely beat working with incomplete, fragmented evidence. Well, depending on one's goals, it might be a disappointment; ordinary life would be quite boring to watch in most cases.
Huh? Is Yayoi actually a teacher as well as a doctor? I doubt that's really the case. I know "sensei" is actually a general term for people in any number of professions, including both doctor and teacher. Could that be the source of confusion, or is it just the terminology in Japanese schools?
So what this Troy analogy is saying, then, is that Ishtar can't actually change the past. All she can do is act in a way consistent with recorded history while still brining about a favorable result.
-Death- and -The Star-
(What is this, two scenes in one?)
So eXarch is ruthless enough to sacrifice their own employees. At least twice. I'm not really that surprised. They're the evil corporation of this story, after all.
There's that tank again. So does LEM or whatever live in the back of Nergal's shop? Or is there something else going on?
Hmm... so whether Enlil is dead or alive is not yet decided? In theory, Ishtar could "decide" that Enlil is still alive, but she has to be careful to conceal it from HE, either by just not allowing it to be known publicly or by maintaining the superposition of dead/alive states. Am I understanding this correctly? In reality, preventing quantum decoherence like that is challenging for small systems of particles, and would probably be nigh impossible for macroscopic systems like, say, a box with a cat inside or, even worse, a person involved in a duel. Any significant interaction with the outside universe (say, a high-energy photon or an electron that slips through containment) could ruin it. I'm not sure if they're really going for something like that with this story, or it's more of a metaphor for something a bit more mundane.
Hmm, "brat". Who is that, I wonder? Well, I can think of one or two people that could fit that designation, especially as Nergal would use it. Sami, perhaps. We know he worked on her biocomputer. There's also Hinata, but he doesn't have a biocomputer as far as we know, and no known reason to have one installed. Wouldn't it be ironic if he was talking about HE?
#57, originally posted Apr 26 2016, 09:45 AM
Route C—Session 13, part 4: Crazy Cyberphysics
Ishtar finds herself in her penthouse suite, and encounters a certain old friend who is still creepy. A discussion of physics and time travel (in a virtual world) ensues.
Spoiler: click to toggle
-Strength-
I think this confirms pretty well that we are, in fact, in a time after route B.
So they can't use Ishtar's penthouse now? Presumably because the authorities and/or eXarch are keeping an eye out for them. But just when was this calamity that she refers to? I remember a line about that in route B; that would have been before the events of that route, and they had no problem using the penthouse. I guess it was a different event in this case; what the line here is talking about might also be different from the "greatest calamity", although having the group "torn apart" has to be worse than the previous event. In any case, apparently Ishtar comes here for some reason; but because her consciousness keeps jumping back through time, it's difficult to understand why.
Memory protection? Is that anything like what they did to Andras (well, aside from this supposedly being unconscious)?
Why does Ishtar immediately assume the figure inside the Exabyte Crystal is L? Did something happen to R? Or is even the way she moves distinctive? For that matter, what sense does it make for someone to be inside a crystal ball? If anyone was in doubt as to whether or not this is the real world (at least, real in the sense we understand it), that doubt should be gone now.
Talking about "time reversal": Hmm. I'm not sure about the physics of this. I get the singularity part, I think. To put it into mathematical terms, suddenly reversing one's direction in time means one's world line (trajectory through spacetime) is non-differentiable at that point; such a point can be called a singularity. I'm not sure about applying quantum theory, though. It may actually be one of the few places in the universe where that theory cannot be applied. I know, for instance, that it cannot be applied to the singularity that is theorized to exist inside a black hole. A time reversal might be different, though.
Shadow Nulls can display extreme emotions? I can't helping thinking back on Sakuya's behavior—her wanting to monopolize Hinata's attention, especially stopping him from interacting with other girls. If what Magdalene (since she's apparently a Shadow Null, it's no longer appropriate to refer to her as Mika) says is true, then is Sakuya...? I don't want to say it. Part of me hopes it's not the case, but I'm sure you can tell what I'm thinking.
If this is a virtual world, it raises some questions: What happened/is happening to other humans? Are there other Unas in the reality Ishtar is occupying, or is she really alone? Well, there's LEM; is she one? Maybe HE? Maybe Enlil, if he's even alive?
Magdalene seems to say that the L trapped inside the Crystal is the real person, but it's not clear at all. If she had called her "Shinozuka Masami" or some such, that would be another matter. Not that we can trust what she says, anyway.
"Programs have no spatial volume." This may or may not be true. One might think that, because programs are information, that they are not bound by the laws of matter. However, information must always have a physical embodiment. Although there are a virtually limitless number of ways a piece of information can be embodied, fundamentally it is always some form of matter or energy, and this may occupy some volume.
The rest, I don't know. What does she mean by "convolve"?
Ishtar's biocomputer has almost 2.7 petabytes of memory? I'd love to even have a hard drive with that much capacity.
"A program cannot pass the Turing test." Well, supposedly, one already has. However, it's really not very convincing. In any case, the Turing test itself is questionable as a true test of intelligence. It probably tests the perceptiveness of an interviewer as much as the intelligence of the interviewee.
Collapse of a singularity? Yet another thing that doesn't make much sense to me.
Someone else who looks like Sin? Who could that be? Oh wait, I guess if there's anyone, it would have to be her mother, Himeka. Is Ishtar saying that Himeka used to be Sin? So, let me get this straight: Mitsuhiko used to be Shamash; then his son Hinata took up the role. Himeka used to be Sin (maybe), and then Mutsuki took up that role. Could this pattern repeat with Sakuya and her father? Anyone else and their parents? I'm getting ahead of myself, though.
And at the end of this session is what looks to be a critical choice. To save L (well, try to, anyway) or not. I'm going to say this right now: supposing the figure we saw in the ball in the future is L, it cannot be done, at least not at this time; to do so would create a paradox. That would probably be a bad ending (although I won't mind getting one, since I want to try to get all of the endings).
I'm personally of the opinion that, in the real world, nothing could ever be done that would alter history, so even time travel is dubious. But many other possibilities have been speculated, such as, "history would heal itself somehow", and "the existing history would not be altered; instead, you would just branch off into an alternate timeline"; in both of those cases, it would be no problem.
Then there is also the possibility that the figure seen in the future is not L, but something or someone else left in there. We could only see a shadow with her shape, after all. We don't even know for sure if it's the same Crystal, since there could be more than one, an easier explanation if Ishtar is contemplating shattering it.
Look at me, thinking deeply about physical matters, when we're talking about a ball with a person apparently shrunken inside it, and this all takes place in a virtual world where most of the laws of physics need not apply anyway.
Oh yeah, one more thing comes to mind: How do we know L is even really inside that thing? We've seen, on two occasions already, that it can project images. Why not a projection of L, who could actually be almost anywhere?
I think this confirms pretty well that we are, in fact, in a time after route B.
So they can't use Ishtar's penthouse now? Presumably because the authorities and/or eXarch are keeping an eye out for them. But just when was this calamity that she refers to? I remember a line about that in route B; that would have been before the events of that route, and they had no problem using the penthouse. I guess it was a different event in this case; what the line here is talking about might also be different from the "greatest calamity", although having the group "torn apart" has to be worse than the previous event. In any case, apparently Ishtar comes here for some reason; but because her consciousness keeps jumping back through time, it's difficult to understand why.
Memory protection? Is that anything like what they did to Andras (well, aside from this supposedly being unconscious)?
Why does Ishtar immediately assume the figure inside the Exabyte Crystal is L? Did something happen to R? Or is even the way she moves distinctive? For that matter, what sense does it make for someone to be inside a crystal ball? If anyone was in doubt as to whether or not this is the real world (at least, real in the sense we understand it), that doubt should be gone now.
Talking about "time reversal": Hmm. I'm not sure about the physics of this. I get the singularity part, I think. To put it into mathematical terms, suddenly reversing one's direction in time means one's world line (trajectory through spacetime) is non-differentiable at that point; such a point can be called a singularity. I'm not sure about applying quantum theory, though. It may actually be one of the few places in the universe where that theory cannot be applied. I know, for instance, that it cannot be applied to the singularity that is theorized to exist inside a black hole. A time reversal might be different, though.
Shadow Nulls can display extreme emotions? I can't helping thinking back on Sakuya's behavior—her wanting to monopolize Hinata's attention, especially stopping him from interacting with other girls. If what Magdalene (since she's apparently a Shadow Null, it's no longer appropriate to refer to her as Mika) says is true, then is Sakuya...? I don't want to say it. Part of me hopes it's not the case, but I'm sure you can tell what I'm thinking.
If this is a virtual world, it raises some questions: What happened/is happening to other humans? Are there other Unas in the reality Ishtar is occupying, or is she really alone? Well, there's LEM; is she one? Maybe HE? Maybe Enlil, if he's even alive?
Magdalene seems to say that the L trapped inside the Crystal is the real person, but it's not clear at all. If she had called her "Shinozuka Masami" or some such, that would be another matter. Not that we can trust what she says, anyway.
"Programs have no spatial volume." This may or may not be true. One might think that, because programs are information, that they are not bound by the laws of matter. However, information must always have a physical embodiment. Although there are a virtually limitless number of ways a piece of information can be embodied, fundamentally it is always some form of matter or energy, and this may occupy some volume.
The rest, I don't know. What does she mean by "convolve"?
Ishtar's biocomputer has almost 2.7 petabytes of memory? I'd love to even have a hard drive with that much capacity.
"A program cannot pass the Turing test." Well, supposedly, one already has. However, it's really not very convincing. In any case, the Turing test itself is questionable as a true test of intelligence. It probably tests the perceptiveness of an interviewer as much as the intelligence of the interviewee.
Collapse of a singularity? Yet another thing that doesn't make much sense to me.
Someone else who looks like Sin? Who could that be? Oh wait, I guess if there's anyone, it would have to be her mother, Himeka. Is Ishtar saying that Himeka used to be Sin? So, let me get this straight: Mitsuhiko used to be Shamash; then his son Hinata took up the role. Himeka used to be Sin (maybe), and then Mutsuki took up that role. Could this pattern repeat with Sakuya and her father? Anyone else and their parents? I'm getting ahead of myself, though.
And at the end of this session is what looks to be a critical choice. To save L (well, try to, anyway) or not. I'm going to say this right now: supposing the figure we saw in the ball in the future is L, it cannot be done, at least not at this time; to do so would create a paradox. That would probably be a bad ending (although I won't mind getting one, since I want to try to get all of the endings).
I'm personally of the opinion that, in the real world, nothing could ever be done that would alter history, so even time travel is dubious. But many other possibilities have been speculated, such as, "history would heal itself somehow", and "the existing history would not be altered; instead, you would just branch off into an alternate timeline"; in both of those cases, it would be no problem.
Then there is also the possibility that the figure seen in the future is not L, but something or someone else left in there. We could only see a shadow with her shape, after all. We don't even know for sure if it's the same Crystal, since there could be more than one, an easier explanation if Ishtar is contemplating shattering it.
Look at me, thinking deeply about physical matters, when we're talking about a ball with a person apparently shrunken inside it, and this all takes place in a virtual world where most of the laws of physics need not apply anyway.
Oh yeah, one more thing comes to mind: How do we know L is even really inside that thing? We've seen, on two occasions already, that it can project images. Why not a projection of L, who could actually be almost anywhere?
Route C—Session 13 (full)
#58, originally posted Apr 30 2016, 07:02 AM
Sorry this took so long. I've been a little distracted with real life stuff, which took time away. Still going on. Things will be back to normal tomorrow, though.
Route C—Session 14, part 1: HE's Battles
Ishtar has to decide whether to free L. She also has to direct Code, which she has taken command of. She cares for HE's injuries, before witnessing his kindness in cyberspace. Then, she sees the battle he was just involved in, as she continues jumping back in time.
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
-Strength-
So, they went for the "doing something wrong in the past leads to a separate timeline" version. Except, seeing as Ishtar here didn't come from this separate timeline, it's bad for her... maybe? It's not really clear about that part. But I'm okay with the concept.
-Miracles-
"Just like {he} did for me... Long ago..." I can't say anything about this yet. It'll have to wait till the next part.
Ishtar declares Enlil to be dead. What exactly is the purpose of this, if she intends to prevent him from dying?
-Arc de Triomphe-
An H&K-P7. I only just noticed the significance of this detail.
So, they went for the "doing something wrong in the past leads to a separate timeline" version. Except, seeing as Ishtar here didn't come from this separate timeline, it's bad for her... maybe? It's not really clear about that part. But I'm okay with the concept.
-Miracles-
"Just like {he} did for me... Long ago..." I can't say anything about this yet. It'll have to wait till the next part.
Ishtar declares Enlil to be dead. What exactly is the purpose of this, if she intends to prevent him from dying?
-Arc de Triomphe-
An H&K-P7. I only just noticed the significance of this detail.
#59, originally posted May 2 2016, 08:53 AM
Route C—Session 14, part 2: Oracle
Ishtar has one last talk with Magdalene, who doesn't recognize her as such, despite having Ishtar's appearance. She goes to free Criminal. She appears before a gathering of Code as an oracle, and sees the imprisoned members of Criminal. She is with HE again, as he fights on.
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
-Souls-
It's starting to look like this isn't really Ishtar. This might be why certain memories are blocked: to protect against her remembering something that would mess up the plan. Since she's going backward in time, she has to be careful about she acts, and knowing certain things might cause problems.
-Covenant-
Afraid of rats, huh?
So, Eques is not physically present. But he seemed to be physically present at times. Like, for instance, when he rescued her on his motorcycle. What's going on here?
And in this scene, too, he holds her, even though he's supposed to be just a holographic projection. Maybe there is a mechanical component to the technology? I remember, when they fought Andras, the Double were projections, but the balls that were projecting them actually shot bullets. They were also able to levitate somehow. I don't know any details of how that would work, though.
-Divination-
So, let me get this straight: Magdalene, Eques, and L are all in Exabyte Crystals at this point. In the previous scene (the immediate future), they are freed? Is that what Ishtar here was doing by opening that door or whatever? It seems to make sense, in that both Magdalene and Eques were around. But what about L? Even in the future, she's in that Crystal. Did someone prevent her release? Or was she recaptured?
It's starting to look like this isn't really Ishtar. This might be why certain memories are blocked: to protect against her remembering something that would mess up the plan. Since she's going backward in time, she has to be careful about she acts, and knowing certain things might cause problems.
-Covenant-
Afraid of rats, huh?
So, Eques is not physically present. But he seemed to be physically present at times. Like, for instance, when he rescued her on his motorcycle. What's going on here?
And in this scene, too, he holds her, even though he's supposed to be just a holographic projection. Maybe there is a mechanical component to the technology? I remember, when they fought Andras, the Double were projections, but the balls that were projecting them actually shot bullets. They were also able to levitate somehow. I don't know any details of how that would work, though.
-Divination-
So, let me get this straight: Magdalene, Eques, and L are all in Exabyte Crystals at this point. In the previous scene (the immediate future), they are freed? Is that what Ishtar here was doing by opening that door or whatever? It seems to make sense, in that both Magdalene and Eques were around. But what about L? Even in the future, she's in that Crystal. Did someone prevent her release? Or was she recaptured?
#60, originally posted May 3 2016, 11:38 AM
Route C—Session 14, part 3: Tomato
Ishtar confronts Enlil about the imminent fight with HE. We have a few surprises here (well, some of them may not actually be surprises). We also get a good ending... and then a bad ending in its epilogue! I start searching for the extra scenes.
(If you're wondering about the title of this, go look up the word on TVTropes, after you view this.)
Notes:
Spoiler: click to toggle
-Wheel of Fortune-
Mutsuki is here, in the eXarch building? (Well, I'm pretty sure that's where this is.) But when Hinata went into the simulation of her room, her message said that, "The real me is below deep, deep water." This doesn't match up with that. Unless... perhaps what she meant is that, while her body might be here, her mind is elsewhere. I suppose that would explain why she can't be removed from that pod.
(Epilogue)
So, in fact, our protagonist this route has been Yumi all along. I didn't suspect anything until Magdalene brought it up. Did any of you catch on earlier? There were little hints, such as the gun she was carrying. If you recall, the real Ishtar carried a Smith & Wesson M60 LadySmith, whereas Yumi was given a Heckler & Koch P7M13, which was mentioned in this route too. Being scared of rats might have been a hint as well, but I don't remember Ishtar ever having any encounters with them. I've probably missed some. I'd love to hear from others what other things seem like hints.
while gently falling (3)
Hinata has another flash of his future this time when he bumps into Yumi. Is this because these events are repeating (because I'm redoing them)? But then, why is this only happening to Hinata?
seek and ye shall find (3)
Yumi has been reading the same book that she mentions in route C. Is she jumping back in time even at this point?
Mutsuki is here, in the eXarch building? (Well, I'm pretty sure that's where this is.) But when Hinata went into the simulation of her room, her message said that, "The real me is below deep, deep water." This doesn't match up with that. Unless... perhaps what she meant is that, while her body might be here, her mind is elsewhere. I suppose that would explain why she can't be removed from that pod.
(Epilogue)
So, in fact, our protagonist this route has been Yumi all along. I didn't suspect anything until Magdalene brought it up. Did any of you catch on earlier? There were little hints, such as the gun she was carrying. If you recall, the real Ishtar carried a Smith & Wesson M60 LadySmith, whereas Yumi was given a Heckler & Koch P7M13, which was mentioned in this route too. Being scared of rats might have been a hint as well, but I don't remember Ishtar ever having any encounters with them. I've probably missed some. I'd love to hear from others what other things seem like hints.
while gently falling (3)
Hinata has another flash of his future this time when he bumps into Yumi. Is this because these events are repeating (because I'm redoing them)? But then, why is this only happening to Hinata?
seek and ye shall find (3)
Yumi has been reading the same book that she mentions in route C. Is she jumping back in time even at this point?
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